Facts, focus. Not vituperation. Grow some.
Old Goat
JoinedPosts by Old Goat
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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Old Goat
Testimony of W. E. VanAmburg. Questions by Sparks for the Eagle. Transcript pages 203-204.
Q. We had some reference yesterday and the day before to a Cemetery Company, down in Pittsburg. Didn’t you take the name of that company or the title of that property in your name?
A. I did.
Q. What consideration was paid for the property?
A. $27,000. That was not my money that bought it. It Was the money of "The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." I conveyed to The United States Investment Company; they deeded it to the United Cemetery Company. There is no stock in the United Cemetery Company. May I explain that?
Q. Yes, if you will. I will be glad.
A. The Society receives contributions in a tentative way very frequently, for which we issue a receipt something like this: "The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Company," a corporation under the laws of the State of Pennsylvania, has received from John Smith $500 as a donation to the Society to be used in the propagation of its work as the proper officers see fit. However in consideration of the uncertainties of life, it is hereby especially stipulated that should said donor have need of any portion or portions of said donation, and shall make request for the same in writing before death, the same shall be reimbursed to the donor from the Society fund." This fund is not ours to use at liberty. It may be called for at any time. Therefore, the Society thought well to have some place where it would have a good asset. It looked around in various places, and they found a farm, and they arranged for a United Cemeteries Company as being the most stable, it could not run away, something satisfactory that could always be used as an asset.
Therefore, it deemed it wise to use $27,000 of the Society’s money on this investment. It bought the farm. It was then agreed to take it in my name, and I passed it on to the United States Investment Company, and the United States Investment Company passed it on to the United Cemeteries Company. That is in the deed of the United Cemeteries Company that that company is—that the United Cemetery Company is a benevolent organization for benevolent purposes; and it is thereby stipulated that half of the income from this cemetery shall be used for the preservation and upkeep of the cemetery, and the other half of the income should go to The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society. That is in the deed on record in Pennsylvania. The directors of the United Cemetery Company do not get one cent from it. The United States Investment Company never got one cent from it. I never got one cent from it. It is simply a holding—it is simply on the part of the United States Investment Company, as a protection against some of those who have placed money with us, and who may call for such at some time. We are in honor bound to- protect these shares, and we have taken the best method we know of how to do it."
Each year there comes to the "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society" from this, half of the income, the proceeds of the sales of lots. This being a benevolent organization, the lots are placed on sale in that cemetery in the suburbs of Pittsburgh at about one-fifth to one-tenth of what they can be gotten for elsewhere. There are lots— It is a fact. There are many people in the large cities that are not able to buy a cemetery lot, scarcely able to buy a place to bury their dead; and we arranged for plans there or plans were arranged through the Cemetery Company so that one could get a five grave plot for $15, large enough to bury the whole family. The Society has received income from that source, and is receiving it now, as it comes in, and were receiving it in 1911, and in 1909.
This Miracle wheat was raised on that property. I say yes, I beg your pardon. I don’t know. I simply speak of what I heard from hearsay. Of my own personal knowledge, I was not there when it was raised. The income from that property in 1911 I should judge was about two thousand dollars to three thousand dollars. That is, one half equaled the two thousand dollars which is the share we got for "The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society." The other half was used for the benefit of the cemetery.
Q. Whose signature is that, will you look?
A. I would say it was the Signature of Mr. C. T. Russell and F. W. Williamson.
I could not swear it is. I did not see them write it. It looks very much like it. I have been a worker with Mr. Russell twelve years; have seen his signature during that twelve years I presume a hundred times, maybe more. I say that resembles it very closely—his signature; but there are so many counterfeiters nowadays that can counterfeit them very closely. If they desired to do it, they might do it easily. How could I say it was his signature? I say it resembles it very closely. If there was no such thing as counterfeiting, I would say that it was his signature. I believe it is his signature.
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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Old Goat
What tax, specifically, would Russell have avoided? You loaded a shotgun with supposition and fired it. The result is a miss. Saying he might have avoided some tax doesn't cut it as evidence. What tax did he avoid? How did he avoid it? Cite the statute. Was there an investigation? Cite the documents.
I would be surprised if many here haven't already read the B. Eagle articles. There's a file folder of them circulating on the net, and the paper is searchable from two sites at least. This is not new. And neither supposition nor the word of a newspaper with a religious agenda is creditable on its own.
Saying Russell "probably" did something is useless. Prove he did something. The time for suppostion is long gone. Shouting with out proof is just shouting.
And if you want help with your crusade, stop abusing people and present some reason.
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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Old Goat
A financial transaction is no proof of wrong doing. Most of what Russell did seems to have been done for the sake of privacy. There is innuendo here, but no proof. I'd like to see the proof. If there was fraud, where is it in the record? All we've done so far is to prove that Russell had something to do with th cemetery. As far as I can see, the claim that he owned or controled the who cemetery is not sustained. Even if he did, prove the fraud. Without proof, this is wild speculation.
As for the divorce transcript, I have a copy. Perhaps focus or the author of the Best History page quoted above can point to the page in the transcript where Maria Russell says United Cemeteries was a stock scheme?
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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Old Goat
I should add that Spill didn't know who the trustees were because he didn't meet with them. He knew and met with the directors, a different group. However, if I were president of a cemetery company, I'd want to know the details. Wouldn't you?
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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Old Goat
This was before Income Tax. So there is little basis to assume a tax burden via income. Russell was obsesive over privacy. It was wrong, he thought, to appear generous. This came from his Presbyterian background and (I think) from some exposure to Plymouth Brethren practice. In any event, if the cemetery was meant to make money, it failed. The last plots were sold off by the society in more modern times at what must be considered a loss.
I mistrust newspaper articles. This one appears partially right. I suspect it would have been impossible for any of the original trustees to not know of Russell's connection to the cemetery, and they certainly knew his doctrine. Many of the Eagle articles do not hold up well when compared to the Russell v. Eagle transcript. But, other than reading the transcript and reports on Miracle Wheat, I haven't followed this. I'm more interested in other issues.
When I can, I'll scan the transcript for more relevant tesitmony.
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109
The Complete Scammer's Guide - by "Pastor" Russell (New Light!)
by Focus inmost of us are reasonably familiar with reports of scandalous goings-on of that old jellyfish lecher, the founder of the watchtower cult, the one and only charles taze russell.. but, are these stories true?.
this thread is going to be devoted to his allegedly scurrilous activities.
so, bookmark it, please, bro' focus is in possession of noo light, and we're going to explore russell like you've never seen him explored before.. we're approaching his 100th death anniversary, and for all i know this virtual exhumation may lead to a real one.
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Old Goat
It doesn't add much, but this is from Russell v. Brooklyn Eagle case on appeal. It's from the transcript of the original case, and is found on pages 178-180. I didn't have time to look for more detail. Perhaps later I can.
Walter E. Spill, residing at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, makes affirmation and is examined and testifies as follows:
Direct Examination by Mr. Sparks:
I am osteopathic physician practicing my profession. I know Mr. Bohnet. I am president of the United Cemeteries Company. As president of that company I authorized Mr. Bohnet to plant and use such part of the grounds of the cemetery as were not in use for cemetery purposes. I have been president, I believe about four years, maybe a little more or a little less. Mr. Bohnet had had that right and privilege during all the time I have been president.
Cross-Examination by Mr. Oeland:
I have been on the cemetery board about four years I believe. I have never had a patient buried there.
Q: What interest does the United States Investment Company own in the cemetery?
Objected to as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial and not proper cross-examination.
The Court: What is the name?
Q: United States Investment Company – do you know the name?
Mr. Sparks: Objected to.
The Court: It may be connected.
Plaintiff excepts.
Q: What is the name of that cemetery?
A: I believe that the full name would be the Evergreeen Mount Hope Rosemont United Cemeteries Company.
Q: What interest does Mr. Russell own in it?
Objected to as imcompetent, irrelevant and immaterial and not proper cross-examination.
The Court: I will take what interest, if any, he owned at the time this wheat was planted by Mr. Bohnet.
Plaintiff excepts.
A: I don’t know.
Q: Do you know his handwriting when you see it?
A: I have seen letters that he wrote. I believe I would recognize his handwriting.
I believe that he was a trustee of the United Cemeteries Corporation. I don’t absolutely know it, in the corporation of which I am president. I know that he was at one time a trustee; when I was elected as president about four years ago.
By Mr. Oeland:
He was not the man that elected me.
By the Court:
I do not know whether this corporation is a stock corporation or a non-stock corporation.
By Mr. Oeland:
I am president of it. I came here as a witness.
By the Court:
The board of Directors have meetings; I preside at the meetings.
By Mr. Sparks:
Q: Do you know who some of the trustees are that you have met with personally at meetings?
A: No, sir; not as you put the question.
The Court: You don’t know who is on the board?
The Witness: I know who is on the Board of Directors.
Q: Is there a difference between the Board of Directors and the Board of Trustees?
A: Yes, sir; I understand there is.
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40
Did the GB ever receive new light without the passage of time forcing it upon them?
by Zoos in1914 did not bring the end they were hoping for so new light shone down from above and corrected their understanding.. 1925 also led to unfulfilled expectations and so new light was bestowed.. .
(i could go through all the dates and expectations... but i won't.).
what if the new light about 1914 being the year that christ returned was provided before 1914?
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Old Goat
DD
It was a change of view. Yes it was a flip flop, a return with slight changes to the Russell era interpretation. But it was presented as "new light."
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40
Did the GB ever receive new light without the passage of time forcing it upon them?
by Zoos in1914 did not bring the end they were hoping for so new light shone down from above and corrected their understanding.. 1925 also led to unfulfilled expectations and so new light was bestowed.. .
(i could go through all the dates and expectations... but i won't.).
what if the new light about 1914 being the year that christ returned was provided before 1914?
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Old Goat
To answer the original question:
Yes, in 1958 with the superior authorities doctrine and in 1964 with resurrection doctrine. Some of the 1964 changes (which seemed rational to me) were rolled back in the last few years.
Another would be tobacco use.
The problem with watchtower doctrinal development is that discussion and questions are discouraged to the point of intimidation.
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95
The Ravings of Trolls Distracts FOCUS From Real Watchtower Scandals
by cofty inmy thread was inspired by gentledawn's insightful comment about the effect the events in wales had on her jw husband.... hope any lurkers out there can filter out the signal (storys and experiences like this) to noise (the current trolls running amok on the forums) ratios.
this the problem with those who focus on outrageous fantasies about the watchtower.
it distracts from the real issues that need to be highlighted.. what happened in wales was for real.
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Old Goat
Isn't Focus the same guy who calls a potash operation Russell's secret gold mine? And builds his "history" page out of plagiarized, sometimes inaccurate material?
His crap reads the same. Probably is the same. Is he the same person who tried to sell a blury photocopy of Conley's photo on ebay and wrote endless crap and false claims in ebay sales descriptions? This is his victory on the internet? Don't they prescribe meds for that?